Woo hoo! That's what I'm talking about! =) =)
Larris 21:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Heh heh heh. So...what should we cover here? Every single weapon-type--everything that kills the PC and NPCs (besides T3 water)? Or actually, we might have to make a distinct sub-category for the multitude of traps there are. How about the Fake Eye? Security system projectiles, electrocution, and cannonballs? Constantine's glyph traps? Pressure plates? Fire Elementals' ranged attack?
Ehcmier 21:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Well you got player weapons (sword/dagger BJ arrows) and enemy weapons(sword,hammer, mace, crossbow, blow gun, claws, arrows, priest spells), and machine weapons turrents and combat bot. The fake eye and other inventory stuff would probably be just items, except for mines that is. Something either the player or enemy holds or uses to do damage? And are the only tools lockpicks and climbing gloves? maybe a compass too, or are they just items too?
Sxerks 21:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Mines are weapons, too! And from that follows that the throwable cast hammers are weapons. I think the compass should be a tool, actually. What was the verdict from the TTLG forums regarding the light gem being a physical item or not? (I like to think it is.) But... maybe the best thing would be to make a general Equipment category, and then make Weapon a sub-category?
Most people visiting a gaming site will expect the weapons section to be populated with whatever may be called up by pressing the number keys in-game. But I think that's pretty... well, lame, since this isn't an ordinary gaming site. I think actually that crossbows and whatnot should be included, even the polearm from the intro movie. =)
Sub-categories would definitely be good in this respect.
Larris 22:57, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree. And while DromEd has everything listed in the object hierarchy--including items never seen in-game, like "weirdarrow"!--it's no good for categorising. The Scouting Orb, for instance, is listed under Grenades, presumably because it's lobbed. I could make a list of items to be rearranged into acceptable categories, including Traps, which the player can sometimes use to his/her advantage against NPCs, as well.
And how about two sub-headings "Defensive Usage" and "Offensive Usage"?
- Causes damage to Undead
- May give the player time to attack a blinded NPC without immediate danger to the self, i.e. knock them unconscious, though this has been changed somewhat in T3, as a blinded NPC will often instantly regain sight, and can attack the player, rather than getting knocked out.
- Blinds most NPCs, allowing the player to escape
Ehcmier 23:16, 14 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Off the top o' my head....
Explosive Device (T1)/Sunburst Device (T2)
Flare (T2, thrown at an Explosive Barrel/Powder Keg)
Frogbeast Egg (T2)
Holy Water Flask (T3)
Oil Flask (T3)
Extra: Boulder, Crate (?), Hammer, Pickaxe, Shovel, NPC corpse parts (?), other throwable objects?
The Flares, Explosive Device/Sunburst Device, Explosive Barrels/Powder kegs, and Frogbeast Eggs are examples of indirect usage, meaning they require a further step, and/or an extra object for it to react with, before it can accomplish its purpose. The Holy Water Flasks and Oil Flasks can cause direct damage or be used as the first step in a process to damage or hold off NPCs.
Holy Water Arrow (T1)
Noisemaker Arrow? (T3)
Constantine's Sword (T1)
Dagger (T3, though shown in briefings and cutscenes in T1 & T2)
OTHER PC WEAPONS:
Explosive Barrel/Powder Keg (May be pushed over an edge to fall and explode on impact, reducing the need to expend an inventory item)
Ehcmier 01:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Looks good. I say the noisemaker gets classified as a defensive weapon. And the Explosive barrel/Powder keg gets lumped into the "Extras". I'm unsure of the need for categorizing offensive and defensive weapons separately, but I guess it can be done in combination with the outline above. Each item may be member of several sub-categories, after all. I'm pretty sure defensive and offensive were turned around in the Flashbomb example, though. =)
BTW, I think the PC and NPC terms should be avoided, if for no other reason than their association with another game genre. If I must refer to the first-person character, I think "player" should be good enough. I just simply find it more immersive, is all.
Larris 05:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
General Terms by Which to Call Game Characters Besides the Player's. Edit
I agree with the PC/NPC problem. I use it because I'm not sure what we should say. Some things refer to all AI, and some things don't, and sometimes a creature isn't really an AI (will o' the wisp). Not all AI are "enemies" or "foes", at least, not in the traditional sense, so I don't like separating those that are from other AI that can also be affected by a weapon all the same. T1 and T2 had "Thieves" and "Pirates" while T3 just called them "Thugs". T3 has "Fences" and "Stores", which the player cannot really interact with, then there are "Merchants" with whom the player can. All terms have different meanings in the Thief Universe. So what do you suggest for general terms? :)
Ehcmier 06:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
I am really impressed by the changes in the arrows pages guys! I am almost done with all TG text pages and will focus on the weapons pages. I will make the next pages so they match the new thief wikia standard :) But I am a bit confused how I should categorize you ideas in the pages themselves. Then again I am only making basis articles so they can be edited later. When you reach a decision they can be easily edited and reorganized.
Oh, and I think that the term NPC is OK for other games, but Thief needs something different too. I used it because I couldn't figure another, except foe or enemy or creature or human. Any help on that will go miles.
Dan7 09:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Let's move the PC/NPC thing to the forum. And Dan, you decide the Thief Wiki standard, too. =)
Larris 06:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
What to do with Unused weapons and traps found only in DromEd? Edit
...Well, and FMs too. "Unused Items", "Unused Weapons", and "Unused----" categories?
We have the Jewelled Dagger in T1/G and T2, and the Tiltowait, for examples. And I mentioned the weirdarrow yesterday. The Dagger is found with the Blackjack and more of Garrett's items.
And since we are trying to avoid D&D trappings, do we call "Magic Missiles" by their name?
I stumbled across "ConFreeze" in the end-game section of the hierarchy...I don't know if it's used in-game or not, and have yet to discover its effects. I once allowed myself to get caught by Constantine, and I kept getting zapped by something unseen, but Con's properties suggest he attacks Garrett with random spells of many kinds, only Garrett dies too quickly to see them without repeated reloading.
Since I'm already in DromEd, and I'm seeing these things while looking for other things, and it's no big deal to me to place visual objects into the virtual studio to make a screenshot, should I go ahead and make an image file for these miscellaneous, and often unused, objects for the Wikia? This may be something best saved for the Fanworks section, but could be linked to from anywhere. These would be items that are present in the object hierarchy, separate from custom objects, like the "real" Bow Upgrade.
Ehcmier 07:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
I don't see anything wrong with calling Magic Missile exactly that - it's not like we have any other name for it.
Trouble with many separate categories is that they raise the overall clutter level. Perhaps one single "Unused content" category for all these thingamajigs would suffice. I envision just making a comment that they're only appearing in DromEd, and then linking to the Unused in-game contents article. Obviously not all things DromEd are really a part of the Thief Universe, either. Neither are basketballs, for that matter, but I believe the court deserves mentioning in an article somewhere. What to include is a call for editor's discretion, I should think.
I haven't had DromEd installed in very many years, so to me, hearing about this stuff is like one of those fascinating spoiler/"wow, I didn't know that" moments. Which we hope to create plenty of around here. Right? =)
Larris 08:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I know I love that stuff! Very well. It could all be placed on one page, like stuff in a junk drawer or junk closet or dusty attic. If it somehow gets too full, a different direction could be decided upon. And the FM connection might change the presentation, too. After reading "Rumpleball League" in the game texts, I wish for a rumpleball in a rumpleball court. :p
When I see the words "Jewelled Dagger" next to "Blackjack", I think of the dagger Garrett was holding when Viktoria knocked on his door, and the jewelled handle of the sword in the foreground. Just a mental image.
Ehcmier 08:44, 16 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Sure, a Jewelled Dagger article (or a catch-all article containing its entry) should be referencing that shot from the movie, too. By all means, it's not just a mental image, it's evidence!
But things like Rumpleball... I think there should be separate articles here for those mysterious one-of-a-kind references, too. It doesn't matter that they're going to be really short. Just having them pop up in searches and categories would be nice. You know, like when you leaf through a real encyclopedia and you suddenly raise your eyebrows at an entry header. Don't you love that feeling?
Larris 09:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Me likey! Looking at the Names List....
Rumpleball League is a sport, Squire Shaunus is a character, The Master Guest List is an in-game text, Karras's plan includes Squire Shaunus' home, and Masked Servants (speaking of weapons) are given to the Squire.
Ehcmier 09:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
Heh! The nicest stuff happen when I am sleeping! =)
Unexpected entries are exactly what the Thief Wiki should have! I think taffers would love that! I made the Unused in-game contents page with the idea of it covering all the unused content from Thief. I have divided it into Visual and Audio contents for now, but it is seriously unfinished. For example I can only speak for the unused books, but I'm not sure how it's done with all the other content. I also borrowed the term Unused from Jason to be honest. =) My original plan was to create a single guide page for all unused content, where we explain how we got them. Then we put links to the pages containing the unused contents themselves. Like I put a link to the in-game text, then we put links to unused weapons, unused conversations and so on. How about that?
Dan7 13:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I still think we could possibly make a template for this kind of thing, but haven't found the time to research exactly how the template stuff works.
Larris 14:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
from category:weapons Edit
Info to added back into main article whenever....
Only usable for stealthy kills.
Heavy weapons for direct confrontation.
For ranged damage or stealthy kills.
Tools that directly assist in thievery.
Thrown in a ranged-manner, explodes upon impact.
Thrown on the ground, actives when walked upon.
Thrown on the ground, special action.
Not weapons, but have special effects
Copied from deleted (items weapons and tools) talk pageEdit
With the Weapons and tool categories, along with the sub-categories, I don't think we will need this page any more. It's still WIP with organizing everything, so stay tuned. Big McLargeHuge 03:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
I like the sections with arrows, hand weapons, and so forth.
I notice you call this the Weapon and Tool Index from the individual pages. How about a renaming to "List of Items, weapons, and tools", perhaps? I'm not sure I can explain why, but it somehow seems more wiki-ish to me. Not that it's any goal in itself, but... =)
Larris 21:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Holy Water Edit
I propose making one Holy Water article incorporating both the Holy Water Vial of T1/T2 and the Holy Water Flask of T3, even if they differ in applications (Category:Throwing Equipment?). This mirrors the way we've treated the other differences between weapons/equipment from the Dark Engine games to Deadly Shadows.
Larris 23:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
- Sure. And the Holy Fonts should be connected, at least in a blurb. As far as I can recall, (without looking them up):
- T1/G's Holy Water Vials (categorised under potions in DromEd) only allow you to bless your water arrows. T2 has no Holy Water Vials. T3's Holy Water Flasks can be shattered to make puddles to repel or harm undead (all undead, or just zombies?), and I never tried to bless my water arrows, so I don't know if that was doable, and if it was, if it worked the same.
- Ehcmier 23:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
- I'm thinking of making a [[:Category:Potions]] OR a [[:Category:Comestibles]]. I'm not sure if the DromEd categories are what we need as a standard hereabouts, because we know there are some oddities in the mix there, don't we?
- Larris 18:25, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's only important to know what LGS and FM makers know to help us with the ultimate decision. Just more facts to work with, especially since the oddities exist, and until we have categories that fit the m neatly. Just info. :)
- Ehcmier 05:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
I would propose the following splitting of categories:
- Melee Weapons
- Swords & Daggers
- Blunt Weapons
- Ranged Weapons
- Cannon Shots
- Magic Weapons
- "Creature" Weapons (e.g. those flying bugs)
- Melee Weapons
- Lock Picks
- Navigation Tools
- Vision Tools
- Climbing Tools
- Offensive Potions
- Defensive Potions
Thehoosh 22:59, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds alright in my opinion. The arsenal can use some more specificity. I guess the rest will tell you to just go on and do it, and we'll see how it goes. So go ahead =) I like the idea of the quest items. The time will come when we'll make articles about them, but we'll need Ehcmier's rendering skills. Dan7 23:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
Weapon Images Edit
- Maybe we should agree upon one Default Background which will be used for each screenshot of an item, maybe a certain table or wall texture or just plain white. I looked it up how they've done it in the T2 Object Browser: they allways used the same backgound, a meadow with a grey stone wall in the background.Thehoosh 23:23, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
- I agree they need to be the same, and have expressed elsewhere that I consider these placeholders until I can get a better method for making these. If you can tell me how to get one background for all three games, I'll do it. Heh heh. And no, cutting the object out and pasting it over a background is no good. I ran into problems with that already, more than expected. Oof!
- I want a flat colour myself, and I want the objects to have shading, but what you've seen is the closest I can get without creating custom textures, importing them, and lighting the "room" properly. I've placed multiple lights on the background to wash it out and make it all one colour, but I can't get all the gradation out. The light_bright command removes all shadows from the objects, making them 2D. Flat colours aren't available in the textures and have to be custom made. The T2 object browser is just an quick reference so people can find what they are looking for more quickly, but the pictures are garbage quality and don't really show off the object. Ehcmier 23:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)Ehcmier
- I've got an other idea: why not using a direct screenshot of the object from the place you can find it in Thief but make the image look old, like the cutscenes in T1 & T2, something like these here:
- I think this effect is called Moire and I've seen it in several picture editing tools. For my FM Keeper Investigations I wanted to do a briefing video, I took screenshots and turned them into those "brown" pictures in 640x480 and it almost looked like on of the briefings from T1 or T2. However I had never finished the video but this "technique" could be usefull for the object images and in addition, they add to the Thief-like feeling.Thehoosh 00:09, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
- Sepia is the term you're looking for. "Moire" is an unwanted (usually) wavy pattern that appears when an image is shrunk down that has evenly spaced parallel lines or dots in it. Interesting idea, but I'd rather the objects were not only very recogniseable, especially to the non-fans, but also shown off in detail, like a portrait. The player doesn't always get much time to get a good look at an object. I too would like to see more sepia images, but not for this. I'd rather see an enhanced, full-colour portrait that someone could stare at and study. :) Ehcmier 00:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)Ehmcier